Discussion:
One better reason why NOT to join the PowerBASIC Forum.
(too old to reply)
Wayne Diamond
2009-10-29 00:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
When you think of a computer language, you don't think of it being under the
control of 1 man.

But that is what Powerbasic is.

I just wish it had've taken me less than 9 years to act upon what I already
knew many years ago.

If Bob Zale gets run over by a bus tomorrow, that's it. If you contribute
source code for 9 years like I have and then he decides he doesn't like you
anymore, then that's it, you're finished. It's like Vince McMahon of the WWE
wrestling.

It's as simple as that - Powerbasic is a 1-man train, and that adds a hell
of a lot of vulnerability to us as developers and _our future_.

I've been using Powerbasic for over 9 years and I've made several
suggestions, not one which was incorporated yet all of which were more
advanced or beneficial than the existing systems (for example, a
multiply-with-carry assembly PRNG developed by Professor Marsaglia that was
far more efficient than PB's RND() function, and one that actually passes
Diehard and ENT tests).

Interestingly, all of those emails I've suggested via email over the years,
yet it was only my last suggestion - when I pointed out a bug - where they
decided, after 9 years, to ban me from the forums for not using my real
name.

And just look at Bobs posts here now - in threads that have nothing to do
with me, mentioning me.

POWERBASIC HAS _ZERO_ RESPECT FOR CUSTOMER PRIVACY.

I repeat.

POWERBASIC HAS _ZERO_ RESPECT FOR CUSTOMER PRIVACY.

For some bizarre reason it is extremely important for Bob Zale that you (the
billions of people on Earth) know the full name of every Powerbasic
customer.

Do you know of any other software company like this
??????????????????????????????????
Auric__
2009-10-29 14:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Wayne Diamond
When you think of a computer language, you don't think of it being under
the control of 1 man.
But that is what Powerbasic is.
I just wish it had've taken me less than 9 years to act upon what I
already knew many years ago.
If Bob Zale gets run over by a bus tomorrow, that's it. If you
contribute source code for 9 years like I have and then he decides he
doesn't like you anymore, then that's it, you're finished. It's like
Vince McMahon of the WWE wrestling.
It's as simple as that - Powerbasic is a 1-man train, and that adds a
hell of a lot of vulnerability to us as developers and _our future_.
Ignoring your other complaints for the moment, nobody is stopping you from
writing your own PB-compatible compiler. You could take the FreeBASIC sources
and go from there. (Or the QB64 sources, if they ever actually get released.)
--
If anything was vindicated, it was the balance of good and evil.
MikeTrader
2009-11-02 09:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Wayne Diamond
POWERBASIC HAS _ZERO_ RESPECT FOR CUSTOMER PRIVACY.
yup.
My personal information including my full name & address were sent
Jose Roca (who promptly banned me from his forum - as Zale most
likely requested).
Despite being a member of his forums since inception (when everyone
used nicks), he chose that exact moment to ban me for not using my
full real name...
Thanks Jose. All the respect I had for you as a developer evaporated
in a single instant. I hope you are happy with your new bedfellow...
hutch--
2009-11-02 19:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Come on guys, this stuff is just "Hearts and Flowers". You knew the
deal, the PB peer forum requires your real name. Get found out that
you are using a phony or a nick and your membership is terminated.

What you guys are asking for is an exception based on some notion of
privilege, you somehow, somewhere think you should be treated
differently to all the other members of the PB peer forum. If you
REALLY and TRULLY must remain anonymous for whatever reason, don't
join forums with a phony name or don't expect to stay there if they
find out you are not using your real name.

You are not damaging PowerBASIC or the vendor or the user base with
this line of whining, its just damaging your own credibility when the
factors involved are about as obvious as tits on a bull, you want
special treatment over and above all of the other members of the PB
peer forum and that is never going to happen.

With Wayne, I would suggest making your code and site available
elsewhere so people can take advantage of what you have to offer, with
Mike, you have moved on to Microsoft C++, what do you expect to
achieve here, keep losing the same argument over and over again at the
expense of your credibility ?

Regards,

hutch
MikeTrader
2009-11-03 09:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hutch, I should start by saying that I respect your work and your
contributions greatly.

I have addressed most of the comments you have made in these threads:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.powerbasic/browse_thread/thread/a97f779475040f62
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.powerbasic/browse_thread/thread/e1a056169a01cb21
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.basic.powerbasic/browse_thread/thread/fc8fd730f010387a

To summarize, I was granted expressed permission to post on the PB
forums by Mr Zale, live, in person, on the phone, years ago. Wayne has
said he was too. We were not banned for using a handle, we were banned
for offending Mr Zale.

Banning bone fide registered users and refusing to sell them upgrades
is childish, but as evidenced by the posts above, it impacts
developers that have made a significant investment of time and money
in developing software. In my case, the cost of migrating to another
language is substantial and will take at least 2 years. These are
legitimate complaints that really can't be minimized as "whining".

You know better than anyone what it takes to write a compiler like PB,
and I suspect your respect for Mr Zale is borne out of this. I
understand that, but would also ask you to consider the possibility
that the number of people all saying the same thing might not be just
fabrication.

While I am not fond of usenet forums in general, they are the one
place that is beyond the reach of Mr Zale's delete button. For this
reason alone, I post the unsavory truth and my personal experience.
What I accomplish by this is a source of information that others
considering this compiler have access too. I only WISH I had read
these threads ten years ago.

I believe that truth prevails. I believe people are not stupid. I
think anyone reading these threads can discern for themselves what is
BS and what is not. I believe people have the right to know, and while
powerbasic is a fine language for what it is, it is administered in a
way that has a high potnetial for a great deal of pain down the road.
I defy anyone to read Wayne's posts on the PB forum and now here, and
tell me he is exaggerating or misrepresenting the truth. We have
incurred substantial loss as a result of Mr Zale's actions.

Unfortunately human history is full of brilliant people that are
narcissistic ego maniacs, but their brilliance does not give them the
right to get away with things that the rest of us would be held
accountable for. While I may not be winning a popularity contest here,
I do know the truth and I am not afraid to stand up and say it.

As for my credibility, my years of posting on the PB forum speak for
themselves. My code contributions are dug up and used frequently:
"2 hours work with the fabulous help of Mike Trader's header files"
http://www.powerbasic.com/support/pbforums/showthread.php?t=41373&highlight=mysql
My Handle is ubiquitous and I take with me all my history of posting
just as you do with your name. The only difference is that for the
very sound reasons I have enumerated, I decline to have my privacy
violated by the unreasonable demands of an online forum (software that
I paid for by the way)

There seems to be this unwritten "code of conduct" that prevents
"respectable" developers from casting aspersions on other developers
work under ANY circumstances. It is deemed "unprofessional". IF you
buy into that, then by definition alone, I have "lost" credibility. I
don't.

If we were talking about trash talking someones code (assuming it he
was proficient), then yeah, thats a little tacky. But a compiler
developer banning good people left and right, deleting threads, and
lying.... cmon, that's an elephant in the living room. The fact that
everyone sits idly by, trying to keep the retarded cousin a family
secret, is more a statement of the disfunction of the family than my
loss of credibility.

So with the greatest respect, I think you may find it quite difficult
to refute the statements made in these threads - which at this point,
is about the only way I can see to accomplish what I think you are
attempting (supporting powerbasic). Should Mr Zale step aside, I think
the product could have a new lease of life, but for now, it is mired
in controversy and has a shady reputation of his own making.
hutch--
2009-11-03 12:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Mike,

I have known both Wayne and yourself for years and I remember well
your dual contributions to the PB peer group forum but as I pick up
this rather silly debate at the tail end of its life, much water has
gone under the bridge that will never flow backwards again. What has
been done by both sides is now history and nothing is going to change.

Your comments on the PowerBASIC vendor are coloured by your own side
of the debate and I suggest that it is in fact far from the mark.
While its possible the the vendor is as cantankerous as I am I can say
with a fair bit of weight behind it that he is a very skillful
programmer who has been writing compiler since about the American war
of independence (I think) and has designed a unique product that
bridged the old basic world to a new era of high performance
computing.

Over 10 years ago he put together a unique concept at the time, a user
based peer support forum that has survived through a couple of
software changes and still survives today as a thriving internet
community. I mentioned before that about a year after I joined the old
forum Dave Navarro kicked me out for using my handle "hutch" so after
hand wringing and brushing away the tear stains for a nanosecond or so
I just rejoined under my own name and have been a member ever since.

Because my primary development language is Microsoft Assembler (MASM)
I get less time to contribute to the PB forum and in any case there
are plenty of very skilled programmers there who can help out the
newer members as I have enough work to do with the MASM forum but it
is still a language I use on a regular basis because it is well suited
for a number of tools I write.

Now if in fact what both you and Wayne have said that you have rubbed
the PB vendor the wrong way for long enough, he in fact has every
right to pull the plug on problematic people because he has to serve
the interests of a large number of other people who are not
problematic. Justice here is in the eye of the beholder, if you cannot
get what you perceive as justice, go elsewhere as in fact you have
done using C++ and it will never bother you again.

With Wayne, I would like to see him be able to post his site links and
code elsewhere but he will have to look around to find a venue to do
that himself. This much, the continued campaign on Usenet looks bad
for both of you, I know you guys so I bothered to try and make sense
of it but in the scheme of things, most people don't give a sh*t and
see people who respond as both of you have done as a pain in the ass.
The continued campaign will shoot both of you in the foot while
failing to do any harm to the PB vendor at all but it will succeed in
driving even more people into the PB peer forum simply to avoid the
irritations of a trashheap like Usenet.

Regards,

hutch
MikeTrader
2009-11-03 22:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hutch--
Now if in fact what both you and Wayne have said that you have rubbed
the PB vendor the wrong way for long enough, he in fact has every
right to pull the plug on problematic people
Well if that were the case then I would agree. The problem is, most
developers that contribute to the PB forums eventually say something
that rubs the vendor the wrong way. A partial list from this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.powerbasic/browse_thread/thread/a97f779475040f62

Thomas Gohel, Brad and Stephane Richard, Eric, Terry Hough, Wayne
Diamond, Lance, Olav, Roger Garstang, John Spikowski, Borge Hansten,
Semen Matusevsky, Vladimir Shulakov, Chuck Hicks, Judson McClendon,
Antoni Gual, Paul Dwyer, Steven Pringels, Gene Warner, Marc Geur,
Frank Cox, Donald Darden:
"I have also experienced firsthand the anger Bob unleashes if he
thinks you have crossed him or sullied his name or product. And he
never apologizes or admits that he night have got it wrong or
misunderstood what you said."

How likely is it that all these people are "problematic"?

I have spoken to most of them and done business with a few of them.
They are the nicest most respectful people I have had the pleasure of
knowing in the developer community, but don't take my word for it.
Contact them yourself.

Since all these people have been banned and/or had threads deleted by
Mr Zale, it would seem that Mr Zales standard for "problematic people"
is a little off, to put it mildly. Any software vendor that carries on
like this can expect some blowback. He is in business and is taking
peoples money. There is a level of professionalism that goes along
with that, or you get a bad reputation and loose business.
Post by hutch--
Justice here is in the eye of the beholder, if you cannot
get what you perceive as justice, go elsewhere
This is not just about me. People are being hurt by this and its not
ok. I am not going to shrink into the woodwork like every other
spineless developer that reads this stuff and does nothing. I am going
to put up warning signs on the internet so the buyer can beware. I
didn't invent this. Look at the review sites for any web service like
hosting for example.
Post by hutch--
The continued campaign will shoot both of you in the foot while
failing to do any harm to the PB vendor
Hmmm I doubt that. If I had read a thread like this I would be doing
more research. Anyone of the people I have listed is available for
contact and will happily render an opinion.
Post by hutch--
driving even more people into the PB peer forum simply to avoid the
irritations of a trashheap like Usenet.
I agree that usenet is not the place for posting development
questions. There are many good forums with administrators that
appreciate talented developers with challenging questions:
http://forums.purebasic.com/english/
http://www.freebasic.net/forum/
http://forum.pellesc.de/index.php
http://www.vbforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1
http://www.xtremevbtalk.com/
http://www.codeguru.com/forum/


There are plenty of free alternatives to powerbasi:
http://www.freebyte.com/programming/basic/
http://www.kbasic.org/doku.php
http://www.freebasic.net/
And the very popular:
http://www.purebasic.com/
http://www.realsoftware.com/
Which support all platforms.

PureBasic has no runtime modules, a well balanced moderator that is
described as
"very accomodating and will only really remove spam posts"
http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27944
and is mature and solid.

Mr Zale needs to wake up and smell the coffee. powerbasic is circling
the bowl. He is his own worst enemy. Not me. If he doesn't make a
major course correction and try to patch up his relationships with the
community soon, I suspect it will be too late.
hutch--
2009-11-04 02:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Mike,

There is an old platitude that addresses the situation you are in, "As
ye sow, so shall ye reap".

The process of trial by anonymous Usenet whining goes nowhere and
while I have read a few of the vendors responses to some of the
nonsense posted here, he is not accountable to people like yourself
nor is a one sided account of events even vaguely representative of
the story.

On the basis of your own postings, criticism, product attacks,
personal attacks, refusal to abide by the forum rules etc ..... he has
every right to arsehole you out the door. I also noted a particularly
cowardly attack on Tom Hanlin based on the same half loaded nonsense
that only occurs in an environment of cowardly anonymity provided by
Usenet.

I have not seen the vendor posting your details even though he has
every right to do so in response to your own postings and i would
imagine it is for much the same reason as I mentioned before, he is
not accountable to a kangaroo count convened in a clapped out Usenet
group by people who hide behind nick names.

My comment to you earlier was to move on, you seem to be writing in
Microsoft C++ these days, hit the big time there, don't waste your
life in a trash-heap like Usenet, it just detracts from good work you
have done in the past.

Loading...