Discussion:
About the recent discussions and events I read here.
(too old to reply)
MystikShadows
2008-02-13 18:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi everyone,

I'm not a Powerbasic customer (yet) but like Tim who has posted recently, I
am a long time follower of the PowerBASIC projects and endeavors (I'm
curious to see which direction things go before I make the move and become a
customer of theirs). I remember back in 1985 when PowerBASIC (I think it was
called TurboBASIC back then but it is the origiins ;-) was being compared,
in a french european magazine of the time, to QBasic and GFA Basic and back
then, power and versatility wise, PowerBASIC ran circles around the other
two with their eyes closed, both hands tied behind their back and quite
possibly their legs tied together too ;-). When I first read (shortly after
that) that PowerBASIC was a new incarnation of the formerly known TurboBASIC
it automatically grasped my attention and I started following the progress
of evertthing ever since.

I have some good friends that are already PowerBASIC users (even since back
in the days where PowerBASIC DOS was the only product available. Ive' seen
first hand what it could do back then, but I was a little too young, still
in highschool, and I couldn't get my parents to buy me PowerBASIC. Curve
balls in life has pushed me away from the BASIC scene though I always
managed to keep an eye on things. One thing that I noticed was that
PowerBASIC has allways kept their promises in terms of compiler performance
and speed of execution that they would boast about, when you get this kind
of performance you're definitaly allowed to boast about it ;-) no two ways
about that. They've been around for quite a while, and nonwithstanding what
has been said recently, you just don't build that kind of product and
reputation for 20 some years without a certain degree of professionalism,
know how, and answering the needs of the customers. I've been many times to
the PowerBASIC forums and their website and Mr. Zale is right in what he
says, it seems that no matter what the issue is, what question (big or
small) that might get posted tehre's always someone with an answer and a
will to help out (and I don't mean some random users, I mean someone from
PowerBASIC INC. being there, seeing how they can help their clients out.
I don't need to be a customer of theirs to realize that their past created
that reputation and that PowerBASIC Inc is geared and focused towards the
past (dos version), present and the future, which is exacly how today's
companies should be. I also commend the fact that they still offer the DOS
version of their product and that they didn't go the same way as other
compiler makers and just cease to support that platform, my hat is off to
them.

This being said, I have to say that as an unbiased reader of this newsgroup,
I find it quite childish and immature to use a newsgroup such as this one
(or any other for that matter) for this kind of purpose. There are more
professional means of dealing with situations when they occur. From what I
read here in the "Banned from powerbasic..." thread, Mr. Zale, Tim have
behaved themselves in a way that should be an example of how professionals
should behave. I have, for instance, no doubt in my mind that Robert won't
post any phone numbers or any personal data of the kind. PowerBasic Inc.
has had a long history exemplary professional ethics which also helps build
a reputation like the one they have. This even though these people showed a
rather complete lack of such ethics by using this place for those purposes,
they have all the emails, physical address, phone numbers they need to "take
of business" so I fail to understand why they need to come on the newsgroups
and try to bring PowerBasic Inc or any of it's CEO and/or employees.

As an unbiased (unbiased as in I have yet to become a customer of theirs)
individual, I raise my hat to Mr. Zale and everyone else from PowerBasic
Inc. I've seen post here for their highly professional behaviors they've
shown here in this truely pointless set of threads I've read. My hat is
truely off to all of them. Further more, I'd like to add that anything I've
read here from them will in no way influence any of my future choices.

And like another member her mentioned, so what if the linux version never
occurs, has it ever occured to anyone that that might have commercial
reasons not to push the project forward, or that maybe they are waiting for
the right "business strategic timing" to make their big announcement or
anything positive like that? Unlike many seem to believe, a bad reason
isn't always the reason why. There's such a thing as feasibility of a
project. too, so whether the linux version was promised, or not, it's the
business goals that need to take precedence here. What good would to be to
anyone if they spend the 100s of thousands of dollars for the linux version
only to find themselves in a situation that just doesn't return the expected
results and needless losses and sacrifices suddenly need to be made?
Perhaps when the project started at the beginning they did polls and such to
get an idea on if the project could be feasible. Maybe later down the line,
they did such a feasibility study that yielded very different results.
Whatever the reason I'm sure it was a commercially sane reason. .Because
they put their reputation behind everything they do.

To sum it up, if I had their kind of reputation, I would make sure that
nothing puts that reputation in jeopardy so in that case, yes, every
decision, every new project, every new prospect is probably made with their
reputation as one of the first priorities. It's no big deal if they did
cancel it, because that happens all the time. I like to "judge" a company
based on what it did, not based on what doesn't exist yet. And based on
that, yeah, PowerBasic rocks (and I'm not even a customer yet ;-) hehe).
They prove it on their website, they prove it with their line of products,
they prove it on their forum (which as a support form definitaly needs to be
moderated) and they even proved it here, with the way the replied and still
manage to leave the doors open even during these threads. No one here can
seriously think that PowerBasic isn't trying to settle the issues here and I
commend and respect that of them.

I know, I'm not a customer, so why did I bother to post this? Like anyone
else here, I'm not a fan of injustice at all. I go by what I've read so far
on the company and the products, I go by what people I trust (my friends
that is) that are customers of PowerBasic Inc. tell me. And by the fact
that they are all more than satisfied customers both for the products they
bought and for the service they've been getting ever since.

My two cents. For whatever it's worth, this is not the place, and the
techniques used to try to bring PowerBasic Inc. (or any other company for
that matter) down is not the way to settle these issues. There are more
professional ways to take care of things guys and the folks at PowerBasic
Imc have been naming these alternatives throughout the "banned from..."
thread. Use them, see what happens. Count to 10 first, they say it calms
the mind ;-) hehe.
.
Frank Cox
2008-02-13 19:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by MystikShadows
Mr. Zale, Tim have
behaved themselves in a way that should be an example of how
professionals should behave.
"Professionals" should make unfounded, false and defamatory accusations
against their long-term customers, starting with accusations of lying and
moving on to accusations of email flooding, inappropriate language and
banning from a service that I never subscribed to?

If that's the case, I'm truly glad I'm not a "professional". At least,
not that kind.
MystikShadows
2008-02-13 19:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Cox
"Professionals" should make unfounded, false and defamatory accusations
against their long-term customers, starting with accusations of lying and
moving on to accusations of email flooding, inappropriate language and
banning from a service that I never subscribed to?
If that's the case, I'm truly glad I'm not a "professional". At least,
not that kind.
I don't know exactly the details of your story Frank, only what I can read
here, but what i'm saying is it shouldn't have appeared here in the first
place. It really should be between you and them. But since it was brought
to this place, they've conducted themselves in an exemplary fashion.
There's no denying that.

I hope this gets settled for you in a mutually beneficial way.
Frank Cox
2008-02-13 20:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by MystikShadows
Post by Frank Cox
"Professionals" should make unfounded, false and defamatory accusations
against their long-term customers, starting with accusations of lying
and moving on to accusations of email flooding, inappropriate language
and banning from a service that I never subscribed to?
If that's the case, I'm truly glad I'm not a "professional". At least,
not that kind.
I don't know exactly the details of your story Frank, only what I can
read here,
Those are the details.
Post by MystikShadows
but what i'm saying is it shouldn't have appeared here in the
first place.
Why not? Other people who are interested in PowerBASIC read this
newsgroup, and it's a matter that is (or should be) of concern to that
demographic.
Post by MystikShadows
It really should be between you and them.
I stated a fact on the web forum. I provided proof of that fact when Bob
Zale asked me to. He banned me from the web forum, deleted the message I
posted with a link to the proof, and then "someone" deleted the archived
message I had linked to.

Don't you think that's a matter of at least some "public interest"?
Post by MystikShadows
But since it
was brought to this place, they've conducted themselves in an exemplary
fashion. There's no denying that.
I'll deny that. They accused me of email flooding, inappropriate
language and being banned from a service that I never subscribed to. In
what way is that behavior "exemplary"? I would describe it as the
opposite.
Post by MystikShadows
I hope this gets settled for you in a mutually beneficial way.
Since they seem to be laying low and making no effort to explain their
actions, I doubt that.
MystikShadows
2008-02-14 00:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Cox
Why not? Other people who are interested in PowerBASIC read this
newsgroup, and it's a matter that is (or should be) of concern to that
demographic.
Because people wanna know what the language is capable of first. I fail to
see how such a discussion makes you look good or them look bad. They
haven't been laying that low atleast not on this thread, again, I'm not
equipped to make this kind of judgement. I don't know the post you're
rerering to. I visited that place but not that often so I'm sure I missed
it. What got me to come to this forum just now was a post issued on
comp.lang.basic.misc saying that powerbasic newsgroup has been very active.
Out of interest for the company and their product I wanted to know what it
was all about. But just reading what's here doesn't give all the story.
I'm not saying you have no reasons to be mad, no one can please everyone all
the time, we're not that preprogrammed ;-). I do realize not everyone
reacts to a situation when it occurs, as it occurs, the same way. I just
think bring it here, so early is more than overkill.
Post by Frank Cox
I stated a fact on the web forum. I provided proof of that fact when Bob
Zale asked me to. He banned me from the web forum, deleted the message I
posted with a link to the proof, and then "someone" deleted the archived
message I had linked to.
Don't you think that's a matter of at least some "public interest"?
Nah, if indeed the accusations were founded, you ended up in jail or
something, that's what the public interest wants to know. The don't wanna
see the man with the gun, the wanna see the blood after the incident occurs
;-). hehe. Seriously, so far, I go by what I read right here on this forum,
it's all I have, and based on these observations I still stand by what I
say, it didn't look like an accusation here, not at first, it looked like a
potential situation that might develop in a bad way. basied on this, I
think anyone just coming here and reading this are likely to come to that
conclusion because of your behavior. Slendering their name is just not the
solution. ;-) in my honest opinion. And if all this proves to be false,
then what will be won of this?
Post by Frank Cox
I'll deny that. They accused me of email flooding, inappropriate
language and being banned from a service that I never subscribed to. In
what way is that behavior "exemplary"? I would describe it as the
opposite.
Again, I almost wish I did work at powerbasic.com so I could know more about
the situation here. As a bystandard, it's easy to say you're right and it's
just as easy to say they're right based on what we can read here in this
newsgroup. :-).
Post by Frank Cox
Since they seem to be laying low and making no effort to explain their
actions, I doubt that.
Don't count your chicken before they hatch, they seemed pretty open minded
here thus far. and they've shown a great deal of patience so far, again,
here, on this forum. If the post was deleted at the other place, no one can
go back in time to really see every detail of what happened. :-). It's
like you made this allegation and are trying to slender their name and their
reputation here, you think they would just sit back and say nothing? They
seem to have their facts straight too from what I'm reading. I'm not
loosing hope for you :-). maybe it's time for a new point of view is all
I'm suggesting :-).
Frank Cox
2008-02-14 02:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Seriously, so far, I go by what I read right here on this forum, it's
all I have, and based on these observations I still stand by what I say,
You are arguing from a position that is simply not supported by the facts.

Have a truly wonderful day!
m***@privacy.net
2008-02-14 00:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Cox
"Professionals" should make unfounded, false and defamatory
accusations against their long-term customers, starting
with accusations of lying and moving on to accusations of
email flooding, inappropriate language and banning from a
service that I never subscribed to?
If that's the case, I'm truly glad I'm not a "professional".
At least, not that kind.
I don't know exactly the details of your story Frank, only
what I can read here, but what i'm saying is it shouldn't
have appeared here in the first place. It really should be
between you and them. But since it was brought to this place,
they've conducted themselves in an exemplary fashion.
There's no denying that.
You claim to have read the thread, but you somehow either rather
conveniently missed the false accusation of email flooding and
bad language or think that it's OK to make false accusations.

I am trying to decide whether you are a PowerBASIC employee
posting under a sock-puppet pseudonym, or just someone who
smokes crack before posting. Could be both, of course...
The fact that you are posting from NNTP-Posting-Host
69.205.201.142 -- the same IP address used by various
PowerBASIC employees -- is certainly suggestive, as is the
fact that a Google search for "***@stny.rr.com"
shows a rather suspicious fondness for deep-fried Haggis.

Perhaps that explains why you flooded *my* mailbox at
example.com with emails containing vile language, why
Google Groups banned *you* for life, or why you went to
Sarajevo and shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria
and his wife Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg.

The above accusations are, by your own definition, a fine
example of me conducting myself in an exemplary fashion, so
I expect you to silently let the above accusations against
you stand, because as a self-styled "unbiased reader of this
newsgroup", you have already gone on record as finding it
quite childish and immature to use a newsgroup such as
this one (or any other for that matter) for the purpose of
responding to these kind of publicly posted accusations.

Remember, there is no statute of limitations on murder, so you
could still be arrested for assassinating Archduke Ferdinand.




--

"If you want a language that tries to lock up all the sharp
objects and fire-making implements, use Pascal or Ada: the
Nerf languages, harmless fun for children of all ages, and
they won't mar the furniture." -- Scott Fahlman
MystikShadows
2008-02-14 01:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@privacy.net
You claim to have read the thread, but you somehow either rather
conveniently missed the false accusation of email flooding and
bad language or think that it's OK to make false accusations.
Not all of it no, I just joined the group,
Post by m***@privacy.net
I am trying to decide whether you are a PowerBASIC employee
posting under a sock-puppet pseudonym, or just someone who
smokes crack before posting. Could be both, of course...
The fact that you are posting from NNTP-Posting-Host
69.205.201.142 -- the same IP address used by various
PowerBASIC employees -- is certainly suggestive, as is the
shows a rather suspicious fondness for deep-fried Haggis.
LOL, you should write movie scripts..I'm not affiliated with powerbasic in
any way. I have nothing against you or frank or anyone else. And no I don't
do crack. I came from comp.lang.basic.misc, out of curiousity. I just
think this should be dealt with outsite of here, that's all.
Post by m***@privacy.net
Perhaps that explains why you flooded *my* mailbox at
example.com with emails containing vile language, why
Google Groups banned *you* for life, or why you went to
Sarajevo and shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria
and his wife Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg.
The above accusations are, by your own definition, a fine
example of me conducting myself in an exemplary fashion, so
I expect you to silently let the above accusations against
you stand, because as a self-styled "unbiased reader of this
newsgroup", you have already gone on record as finding it
quite childish and immature to use a newsgroup such as
this one (or any other for that matter) for the purpose of
responding to these kind of publicly posted accusations.
based on what is written here, on this newsgroup's "banned from.." thread,
this could go either way because there's no background information, or not
enough of it. Like I said before, I'm not here to point fingers or
anything, I simply just don't think this is the place to settle this. And
I've made that clear throughout all my post. it's the only message I want
to send here. that and that I've followed powerbasic since 1985, seeing
what they were up to, and based on that, they had a good repulation and that
for a long time. ;-).

I've said what I wanted to say, that's all I wanted to do. to me it's still
not the place to try to settle things like this. it's my opinion.

If you feel it is the place, just do what you want to do. That's your
business and frank's. I said my opinion here, because I have no plans on
continuing to read there. I started a new thread because the goal was to
say that it wasn't the place for it, and what I know from powerbasic.
that's all :-). I didn't even really expect a reply. Jbut yeah, what you
and frank do has nothing to do with me. I would have said the same thing if
it woudl have been any other company in any other situation, I just don't
think this is the place for it. that's all ;-)

Best of luck to everyone involved. I just hope this gets settled conflicts
are never a good thing in my book.
m***@privacy.net
2008-02-14 02:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by MystikShadows
Post by m***@privacy.net
You claim to have read the thread, but you somehow either rather
conveniently missed the false accusation of email flooding and
bad language or think that it's OK to make false accusations.
Not all of it no, I just joined the group,
You claimed to have read enough to reach the following conclusion:

"Mr. Zale, Tim have behaved themselves in a way that should
be an example of how professionals should behave."

Are you in the habit of coming to conclusions without examining
the evidence? I can understand not bothering to read all 178
posts in the thread, but I would have thought that you would bother
to read at least a few of the the 17 posts from from Bob Zale or
the 6 posts from "***@powwrbasic.com" before expressing such a
strong opinion about the contents of those posts.
Post by MystikShadows
Post by m***@privacy.net
I am trying to decide whether you are a PowerBASIC employee
posting under a sock-puppet pseudonym, or just someone who
smokes crack before posting. Could be both, of course...
The fact that you are posting from NNTP-Posting-Host
69.205.201.142 -- the same IP address used by various
PowerBASIC employees -- is certainly suggestive, as is the
shows a rather suspicious fondness for deep-fried Haggis.
LOL, you should write movie scripts..I'm not affiliated with
powerbasic in any way. I have nothing against you or frank or a
anyone else. And no I don't do crack.
What? You deny doing Crack?? How can this be? You yourself
wrote that

"I find it quite childish and immature to use a newsgroup
such as this one (or any other for that matter) for this
kind of purpose. There are more professional means of
dealing with situations when they occur."

Yet here you are, doing exactly what you claim to be childish
and immature when others do it -- saying that publicly posted
false accusations about you are not true!
Post by MystikShadows
I came from comp.lang.basic.misc, out of curiousity. I just
think this should be dealt with outsite of here, that's all.
Until it happens to you, as it just did. When it happens to
you, all of a sudden it is OK to reply to the accusation here.
That seems rather hypocritical to me.
Post by MystikShadows
Post by m***@privacy.net
Perhaps that explains why you flooded *my* mailbox at
example.com with emails containing vile language, why
Google Groups banned *you* for life, or why you went to
Sarajevo and shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria
and his wife Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg.
The above accusations are, by your own definition, a fine
example of me conducting myself in an exemplary fashion, so
I expect you to silently let the above accusations against
you stand, because as a self-styled "unbiased reader of this
newsgroup", you have already gone on record as finding it
quite childish and immature to use a newsgroup such as
this one (or any other for that matter) for the purpose of
responding to these kind of publicly posted accusations.
based on what is written here, on this newsgroup's "banned from.." thread,
this could go either way because there's no background information, or not
enough of it. Like I said before, I'm not here to point fingers or
anything, I simply just don't think this is the place to settle this. And
I've made that clear throughout all my post. it's the only message I want
to send here.
That's not true. When accused of being a crack addict, you came up
with a *second* message: "I am not a crack addict." Yet you call
others names when they respond to false allegations against them!
Post by MystikShadows
I've said what I wanted to say, that's all I wanted to do.
to me it's still not the place to try to settle things like this.
..unless it happens to you.
Post by MystikShadows
If you feel it is the place, just do what you want to do. That's your
business and frank's. I said my opinion here, because I have no plans on
continuing to read there. I started a new thread because the goal was to
say that it wasn't the place for it, and what I know from powerbasic.
that's all :-).
But you are willfully ignorant, refusing to read the posts from
PowerBASIC before deciding that they "have behaved themselves in
a way that should be an example of how professionals should behave."
And you know this how? By your psychic powers? Nobody that
actually bothered to read the false accusations of email flooding,
etc. could possibly come to the above conclusion.
Post by MystikShadows
I didn't even really expect a reply. Jbut yeah, what you
and frank do has nothing to do with me. I would have said
the same thing if it woudl have been any other company in
any other situation, I just don't think this is the place
for it. that's all ;-)
...unless it happens to you. You are special; you and you alone
get to reply to public accusations. Everyone else has to shut up.
Post by MystikShadows
they [PowerBASIC] seemed pretty open minded here thus far.
...says the man who didn't bother reading the posts where
PowerBASIC made the multiple false accusations.
Post by MystikShadows
and they've shown a great deal of patience so far, again,
here, on this forum.
...says the man who didn't bother reading the posts where
Post by MystikShadows
PowerBASIC made the multiple false accusations.
If the post was deleted at the other place, no one can
go back in time to really see every detail of what happened.

Nobody is complaining about that post being deleted, because
we can't show what it contained. We are complaining about
the posts right here in comp.lang.basic.powerbasic that are
full of lies and slander.
Post by MystikShadows
It's like you made this allegation and are trying to slender
their name
Exactly opposite from the facts.
Post by MystikShadows
and their reputation here, you think they would just sit back
and say nothing?
Looks like they are doing a great job of sitting back and saying
nothing, now that they have been caught in multiple falsehoods.

Good luck with the ongoing murder investigation fingering you
for the murder of Archduke Ferdinand, BTW. We all know that you
did it, so here's hoping that you get off on a technicality.
Phred
2008-02-14 15:30:55 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@giganews.com>, ***@privacy.net wrote:
[snip]

Doesn't take much to get you sidetracked does it? :-)

Cheers, Phred.
--
***@THISyahoo.com.INVALID
m***@privacy.net
2008-02-14 15:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phred
Doesn't take much to get you sidetracked does it?
Quotes:

From: http://www.jose.it-berater.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=1562.0

"This is the same Jeff Daniels [PowerBASIC Staff] that hangs the
phone up on you if you dare to call and politely ask for the
persons name.

This goes to the very heart of my issue with PB and the Jeckle
and Hide nature of the owner when you dare to ask for anything
like a development schedule or revision notes for a new version
(god forbid the words 'bug fix' appear in there (like every
other software product).

PB is a GREAT product but we just have no idea what is coming
next, and no constructive criticism is permitted or you will
be instantly banned like a whole host of very talented developers
that no longer post on the PB Forum.

I have seriously considered stopping development for a year
to learn C or C# for this reason. Had it not been for the
amazing contribution by Jose to PB I would have done so a
while ago"


From http://www.freebasic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=92041

"I like PB for a number of reasons, but after numerous run ins
with the owner [Bob Zale] All of a sudden my nick has "come
to their attention" as not being my actual name, despite the
fact that I hashed this out on the phone with the owner three
years ago when he agreed to let me continue using my nick
after I bought more product.

The Forum used to be a great resource, but after years of heavy
handed culling, all the good developers have left. I have had
it too. Apart from that, who knows where this language is going.
At least here you say you intend to implement OOP and so forth.
We can at least have some hope things are going in a direction
consitent with our needs.


I have got to find an alternative language and begin porting
10 years development soon.

I am also hoping that in this forum nicks are allowed and that
there is tolerant admin that welcomes active discussion and
perhaps even a little constructive criticism with appropriate
courtesy of course"

...

"I have made some very good friends on the PB Forum and I will
be very sad to leave them, but dealing with a rageaholic that
refers to the Forums as "his private property" constantly and
illegally sends your personal information (gather during a
business transaction) to third parties, is just unacceptable."

...

"You know what, Mike.. I'm coming in the door here right
behind you."

...

"Well I am not surprised at that thread at all.
What does surprise me is that he thinks he can fool all the
people all the time."


Quote:
We'll reconsider that temporary block whenever you're ready
to treat your hosts and your peers with normal business
respect. I'm afraid we can't let one person with a temper
make it uncomfortable for everyone else. Please let us
know when you're ready.
Best regards,
Tim Robbins

Quote:

http://forum.magicball.net/showthread.php?t=13108
Hi,
I am just a little confused and maybe you can help me.
You firstregistered with the name of Otringal on
Novemember 4th and then registered again using the
name Quetch Twinsen, which is the name of a fictional
video game character. I know you are aware of this
character as it appeared in Little Big Adventure
1 and 2 and you are working on your own version of
this game. Also your email has the name of Marcia
Razvan. Please help me understand how your real name
is also the name of character in a video game
produced by the French company, Adeline Software?
Sincerely,
Steve Rossell
PowerBASIC Staff"

...


"Statements like

Quote:
PowerBASIC maintains a short list of folks with whom we
will not do business.

and emails like:

Quote:
I think it would be best if you find another supplier
of programming tools. It's clear we can't communicate.
Pleas don't order again. Best regards,
Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.

make me wonder what reality he inhabits. If I had know this
when I started I would never have chosen PB. This is hard
enough. Who wants to deal with that!

As for the "support" mentioned in that thread

Quote:
Anyway, the real truth is that PowerBASIC free support
is extensive and well known. We invite all of our friends
to use it to their best advantage.
Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.


The forums are defined as "User to User" for good reason.
The last time I received any support in those forums was
somewhere around 2002 when Lance was active. Unfortunatly,
he too disappeared without a trace... He was the reason
I chose PowerBasic in the first place.

Since then, "support" has been characterized by posts like this:
Quote:

http://www.powerbasic.com/support/forums/Forum4/HTML/012827.html

Well, Mike, at PowerBASIC, we create and sell programming tools.
It's not possible to include a free lifetime consulting service.
That's economically impossible unless we start charging $3000
to $5000 for compilers like MS and Borland. If you go to Sears
and buy a hammer, they don't take the hammer and build you a
house. They couldn't afford to do that, either, at the prices
they charge for a hammer. When you ask "Please write this code
for me..." or "Please make my code faster..." or "Please help
me find my coding bug..." or "Please translate this code from
SNOBOL for me...", that's consulting work, not technical
support. That's the very reason we created these forums many
years ago, and that's why they're called "Peer Support Forums".
This is simply not something we can do free of charge based
upon upgrade prices under $100. We'd like you to get the
assistance as inexpensively as possible, and I really hope
you can make a connection here. However, if all else fails,
we have always offered paid technical assistance for "
in-depth" problems of this nature. Feel free to contact us
at your convenience if that is of interest to you.
Thanks!
Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.

Either I misunderstood the concept of support or I am just
not a friend.

There seems to be plenty of time to investigate a kid gamer,
yet there is no time to spend expanding upon the choice of
using the FPU for a DWORD operation... and I was actually
hoping to learn something...

The product enjoys the support of some really talented
developers. THEY are PB support. I guess they don't realize
that without these contributions, there is no support.
Providing a forum in which "support happens" is not quite
the same thing as providing support. Even I have contributed
to this body of knowledge in my attempts to give back, by
exploring new areas and posting source code. No more.

I wish I had the skills to actually contribute to this
project [FreeBasic], because I can think of no finer way to
say I am not willing to get drawn into that kind of nonsense,
that I have tolerated for so long, than to create a better
alternative. My hat is off to all of you working on this
project."

From http://www.freebasic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10567&&start=15

"All of these stories about run-ins with PB Inc are quite
interesting. And they mirror my own experiences."
Judson McClendon
2008-02-14 17:51:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@privacy.net
PB is a GREAT product but we just have no idea what is coming
next, and no constructive criticism is permitted or you will
be instantly banned like a whole host of very talented developers
that no longer post on the PB Forum.
Though I would like to know what PowerBASIC plans are, I don't have
a problem with them being mum on that. My concern in this thread is
only that, if I have some future disagreement with PowerBASIC, will
I be summarily shut down for some relatively innocuous remark that
I might make? For the first time ever, this thread has given me
cause to be concerned.

Had I been in the same position as PowerBASIC, I would *never* have
taken the posts (that I have read) which Frank Cox made as hostile,
or even remotely deserving of censure. True, we haven't seen his last
post, the one that was removed, but that was after Frank felt he was
being unfairly labeled and criticized. But for Frank's first post,
I would have taken it as a simple misunderstanding, explained the
company policy on PB/Linux, apologized for any misunderstandings
previous announcements may have caused, and that would have been that.
Companies do this kind of thing all the time, and from the tone of
Frank's early posts, I believe he would have been satisfied, the
situation would have been cleared up, and no bad feelings on either
side. Certainly I would have thought that sufficient and apropos.

To my mind, the crux of the issue is trust. I trust that PowerBASIC
compilers are good products. I trust their documentation and support
to be good. But can I trust PowerBASIC not to "pull the plug" on me
for some mild complaint or criticism I happen to make, at a time when
it could damage my business? Right now, though I use PowerBASIC quite
a lot, I am not vulnerable to any real damage. I have always maintained
a fairly wide familiarity with a variety of development languages and
tools, and have viable alternatives if PowerBASIC were to cease to
exist. PowerBASIC could inconvenience me, but could not really harm
me by shutting down my access to them or their website. So, though I'm
not afraid of offending Bob Zale or anyone else at PowerBASIC, I have
no desire or reason to do so, and would prefer not to do so.

What I will say with certainty is that I will not willingly make
myself hostage to the whim of any company, particularly a company
that appears to act on whim, or with caprice. For the first time, I
am concerned that this may sometimes be the case at PowerBASIC. I
vested some 20 years of development into Micro Focus COBOL, and felt
betrayed when they drastically changed their licensing policy, which
significantly and negatively impacted me and my clients. I still
support my clients who still use systems I wrote using that excellent
compiler, but I have no intention of writing any more, unless
specifically requested by a client. I have no intention of knowingly
putting myself in such a position again, unless it is unavoidable.

So, what to do? Except for the one deleted message, we appear to have
all the correspondence between Frank Cox and PowerBASIC on this issue.
PowerBASIC is clearly not forthcoming with more information, which,
in and of itself, is not reassuring. The only conclusion I can come
to is that, either that one post was (unlike Frank's other posts)
extremely egregious, or PowerBASIC is being overly sensitive to their
own interests, and very insensitive to the interests of a long time
customer. If that one post is truly egregious, PowerBASIC could
simply post it here and say "See?" I would. They should. Why don't
they? I can only see two possible reasons for not doing so: either
the post is not really egregious, or they don't care. Neither one of
those possibilities is reassuring, either. Nothing about this whole
episode could possibly reassure any customer that PowerBASIC is not
at the very least capable of being capricious, and possibly even
malicious. I would be delighted to learn otherwise, but the only
input from PowerBASIC has seemed to me to be somewhat haughty and
indifferent, and everything they have provided so far has been all
subjective assessment, with no actual evidence.

Barring further information, as far as my own self, I see only one
logical course of action, and that is to not put myself in a position
where I could be harmed by PowerBASIC, for this or any other thing I
might say. Unless or until PowerBASIC or Bob Zale makes the effort to
reassure me, I will not be developing any large or long term
applications using PowerBASIC, no matter what it's technical merits
may be. The security of my business is far more important to me than
any possible technical merits of a compiler. If this honest post, with
absolutely no bias or malicious intent, in which I have tried to be
completely fair to both positions, gets me banned by PowerBASIC, or I
find them chilly to me after this, then so be it, and I'll be glad to
learn that now, rather than after I was in a more vulnerable position.
This could have easily been prevented, or resolved at any time, at
least to my satisfaction, if PowerBASIC had been willing to do so. If
it were a client of mine, you better believe I would have fixed it,
just like I'm fixing this for my business, using the choices I have.
I really would have preferred not to have been pushed into this, but
that's life. :-(

So, why do I make this post, which may offend Bob Zale? Partly for the
same reasons I have come to Bob's defense in the past, because I want
to speak the truth. Beyond that, it appears to me that Bob Zale may
have been guilty of arrogance in dealing with Frank Cox. If so, that
is a stupid thing for a businessman who depends on his customers for
his continued prosperity to do. If it is the case, then he should know
that it has cost PowerBASIC the trust of at least one long time loyal
customer. If it is not the case, then he should take action to reassure
his customers that is isn't. That's up to Bob, but either way he should
be aware of the consequences, even if he considers them insignificant.
How he responds (or not) should make it even clearer to everybody what
the character of the PowerBASIC company and management really is, which
should be beneficial to them either way.
--
Judson McClendon ***@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
m***@privacy.net
2008-02-14 15:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Phred wrote...
Post by Phred
Doesn't take much to get you sidetracked does it?
Quotes:

From: http://www.jose.it-berater.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=1562.0

This is the same Jeff Daniels [PowerBASIC Staff] that hangs the
phone up on you if you dare to call and politely ask for the
persons name.

This goes to the very heart of my issue with PB and the Jeckle
and Hide nature of the owner when you dare to ask for anything
like a development schedule or revision notes for a new version
(god forbid the words 'bug fix' appear in there (like every
other software product).

PB is a GREAT product but we just have no idea what is coming
next, and no constructive criticism is permitted or you will
be instantly banned like a whole host of very talented developers
that no longer post on the PB Forum.

I have seriously considered stopping development for a year
to learn C or C# for this reason. Had it not been for the
amazing contribution by Jose to PB I would have done so a
while ago


From http://www.freebasic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=92041

I like PB for a number of reasons, but after numerous run ins
with the owner [Bob Zale] All of a sudden my nick has "come
to their attention" as not being my actual name, despite the
fact that I hashed this out on the phone with the owner three
years ago when he agreed to let me continue using my nick
after I bought more product.

The Forum used to be a great resource, but after years of heavy
handed culling, all the good developers have left. I have had
it too. Apart from that, who knows where this language is going.
At least here you say you intend to implement OOP and so forth.
We can at least have some hope things are going in a direction
consitent with our needs.


I have got to find an alternative language and begin porting
10 years development soon.

I am also hoping that in this forum nicks are allowed and that
there is tolerant admin that welcomes active discussion and
perhaps even a little constructive criticism with appropriate
courtesy of course

...

I have made some very good friends on the PB Forum and I will
be very sad to leave them, but dealing with a rageaholic that
refers to the Forums as "his private property" constantly and
illegally sends your personal information (gather during a
business transaction) to third parties, is just unacceptable.

...

The Forum used to be a great resource, but after years of
heavy handed culling, all the good developers have left.
I have had it too. Apart from that, who knows where this
language is going. At least here you say you intend to
implement OOP and so forth. We can at least have some
hope things are going in a direction consitent with
our needs.

You know what, Mike.. I'm coming in the door here right
behind you.

...

Well I am not surprised at that thread at all.
What does surprise me is that he thinks he can fool all the
people all the time.


Quote:
We'll reconsider that temporary block whenever you're ready
to treat your hosts and your peers with normal business
respect. I'm afraid we can't let one person with a temper
make it uncomfortable for everyone else. Please let us
know when you're ready.
Best regards,
Tim Robbins

Quote:

http://forum.magicball.net/showthread.php?t=13108
Hi,
I am just a little confused and maybe you can help me.
You firstregistered with the name of Otringal on
Novemember 4th and then registered again using the
name Quetch Twinsen, which is the name of a fictional
video game character. I know you are aware of this
character as it appeared in Little Big Adventure
1 and 2 and you are working on your own version of
this game. Also your email has the name of Marcia
Razvan. Please help me understand how your real name
is also the name of character in a video game
produced by the French company, Adeline Software?
Sincerely,
Steve Rossell
PowerBASIC Staff

...


Statements like

Quote:
PowerBASIC maintains a short list of folks with whom we
will not do business.

and emails like:

Quote:
I think it would be best if you find another supplier
of programming tools. It's clear we can't communicate.
Pleas don't order again. Best regards,
Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.

make me wonder what reality he inhabits. If I had know this
when I started I would never have chosen PB. This is hard
enough. Who wants to deal with that!

As for the "support" mentioned in that thread

Quote:
Anyway, the real truth is that PowerBASIC free support
is extensive and well known. We invite all of our friends
to use it to their best advantage.
Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.


The forums are defined as "User to User" for good reason.
The last time I received any support in those forums was
somewhere around 2002 when Lance was active. Unfortunatly,
he too disappeared without a trace... He was the reason
I chose PowerBasic in the first place.

Since then, "support" has been characterized by posts like this:
Quote:

http://www.powerbasic.com/support/forums/Forum4/HTML/012827.html

Well, Mike, at PowerBASIC, we create and sell programming tools.
It's not possible to include a free lifetime consulting service.
That's economically impossible unless we start charging $3000
to $5000 for compilers like MS and Borland. If you go to Sears
and buy a hammer, they don't take the hammer and build you a
house. They couldn't afford to do that, either, at the prices
they charge for a hammer. When you ask "Please write this code
for me..." or "Please make my code faster..." or "Please help
me find my coding bug..." or "Please translate this code from
SNOBOL for me...", that's consulting work, not technical
support. That's the very reason we created these forums many
years ago, and that's why they're called "Peer Support Forums".
This is simply not something we can do free of charge based
upon upgrade prices under $100. We'd like you to get the
assistance as inexpensively as possible, and I really hope
you can make a connection here. However, if all else fails,
we have always offered paid technical assistance for "
in-depth" problems of this nature. Feel free to contact us
at your convenience if that is of interest to you.
Thanks!
Bob Zale
PowerBASIC Inc.

Either I misunderstood the concept of support or I am just
not a friend.

There seems to be plenty of time to investigate a kid gamer,
yet there is no time to spend expanding upon the choice of
using the FPU for a DWORD operation... and I was actually
hoping to learn something...

The product enjoys the support of some really talented
developers. THEY are PB support. I guess they don't realize
that without these contributions, there is no support.
Providing a forum in which "support happens" is not quite
the same thing as providing support. Even I have contributed
to this body of knowledge in my attempts to give back, by
exploring new areas and posting source code. No more.

I wish I had the skills to actually contribute to this
project [FreeBasic], because I can think of no finer way to
say I am not willing to get drawn into that kind of nonsense,
that I have tolerated for so long, than to create a better
alternative. My hat is off to all of you working on this
project.

http://www.freebasic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10567&&start=15

All of these stories about run-ins with PB Inc are quite
interesting. And they mirror my own experiences.
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